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Subject :Marathon course...too short?.. 2010-08-17 23:20:07

Cof

Guest
First of all, what an amazing race :-D Thumps up to the organizers.

I didn't participate, but was cheering all day long. However I am very much considering if I should do my first ironman race next year in CPH, after having done some marathons.

Despite a mind blowing marathon course, I have red in many race reports, that it was too short, as much as 1,6k. I find it very odd and incomprehensibl why the organizers would put together a route too short o.O I simply don't get why purposely making the course too short? What's the point...Maybe to be know as a fast race, trying to get more participants, but that doesn't seems like an issue to this race. I'm aware that different ironman races a difficult to compare time-wise, since they are so different. Whats the point of only just reaching, for instance, a sub 10h time, if you know that if the course being the proper distance, you wouldn't?

But, all of you with GPS watches, did you too get a marathon not long enough? Please share...
Additionally, it would be very nice to have a comment from the organizers. Did you have it DAF measured? Or anything like that.
Please prove me wrong on this matter ^_^

This is by NO WAY, what's so ever, a post questioning the achievement of all the competitors racing, you all truly are ironmen/woman.
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Subject :Re:Marathon course...too short?.. 2010-08-18 09:10:07

mifsud
I ended up tracking 39 something, but i also saw that my running speed slowed down alot goinger under some of the bridges and beside taller buildings. Though i finded quite a lot, so could be interesetting to hear about it was DAF messured or not.
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Subject :Re:Marathon course...too short?.. 2010-08-18 09:26:16

johanandbex
it was at least 50k long want it?? it felt like it anyway :)
my garmin had it down around 41 something, i lost signal a few times so that could be it too. It also depends on where the course is measured..if you measure the center running line and you run the same line without cutting any corners I am sure it would be right. If ýou have time you could use google pedometer tool to map it out and measure it for you.
I still think it was well over 50k, im sure of it!
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Subject :Re:Marathon course...too short?.. 2010-08-18 10:55:18

ThomasRohde
Good one, Johan <g>

Any links to these Race Reports claiming a shorter run ?

A Garmin FR is not precise enough to give a precise measure in these conditions (buildings, bridges, etc)

Thomas
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Subject :Re:Marathon course...too short?.. 2010-08-18 15:59:15

renisse

Guest
My FR 405 said 41.8km so it was perfect. like everthing else. :-D
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Subject :Re:Marathon course...too short?.. 2010-08-18 17:30:40

mifsud
Saying 40.65. But once again, there was bridges. It also says that there was a high hill at 17 km at 42 meters above sea level.

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/45067762
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Subject :Re:Marathon course...too short?.. 2010-08-18 18:54:58

TIP
My FR305 says 40.51km but I know that is wrong, because like Johan I felt like it was 50 ;)

Anyway FR GPS watches aren't 100% precise especially when around tall building and under heavy canopies.

I'm sure the organizers have measured the distance and that it's correct, and if it isn't I don't really care. The race was excellent from start to finish and I plan on doing it again next year. Just have to find the right time to sell the idea to my wife before signing up again....^_^
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Subject :Re:Marathon course...too short?.. 2010-08-19 00:12:59

Jørn Steffensen
My 310 XT says 41.19 km.

However, when looking at the recorded route, I had superpowers and ran straight through the same building in Nyhavn on all three rounds, jumped over the bridge from T2 straight to Christiansborg Slotsplads. I had a few other places where I showed off my new-found powers ;D

As it has already been mentioned, the GPS have problems next to tall buildings etc. Furthermore, mine has problems on places like Christiansborg slotsplads, where you run up on one side of the road and down the other side. It does not not always register this correctly.

Still it could be interesting til hear the official statement.
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Subject :Re:Marathon course...too short?.. 2010-08-19 17:49:51

KMD Challenge
Hi everybody

Thanks for the kind words!

The marathon course was measured with the help of some of Copenhagens most experienced marathon organizers, and is with our knowledge the right length. But, there is always several factors that can affect this;

We were said to have 125.000 spectators, these standing on corners and turn around points could shorten/lengthen the track

All the spectators made the course build up a bit chaotic. We have placed the actual marking of the turn around points on a map, and they look to be in the exact position, but 25 meters to short in one end means 150meter in the total calculation.

A 3 loop course is extra vulnerable to all the factors, as they multiply with 3...

And as you say, GPS watches are not the most reliable when between houses and with a lot of corners.

It was never our intention to have a too short course.

/Challenge Copenhagen
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Subject :Re:Marathon course...too short?.. 2010-08-19 22:15:07

Henrik Damslund

Guest
A lot has been said about distances. GPS watches are know as being inprecise, especially in cities and under bridges, AND because of all the quick turns around both "ends" of the loops, GPS will be incorrect, as it will cut the many sharp corners short.

I ran (as always) with my Polar RS800cx PTE with the S3 footpod. I calibrated it on friday before the race on a 1200m track route, and it measured the CC rout to be 42,27km. THAT is damn close.

So I say the distance is correct.
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Subject :Re:Marathon course...too short?.. 2010-08-19 22:47:20

Cof

Guest
Thanks for the official reply, and a good one too:-D

Seems like everything is just as it should be ^_^
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Subject :Re:Marathon course...too short?.. 2010-08-20 07:51:40

ThomasRohde
Fantastic ;D

Worth noting, though it doesn't really contribute much to this discussion:

FR 405 (and maybe other GPS) measures are less precise in Europe than in US - take 405 running in NYC and you won't get nearly as much deviation even with bridges, buildings, etc. Reason is of course, that the GPS network above America (where Garmin has most of its marked) is much more dense and hence, you get a more precise measure.


Husk I øvrigt, hvis I løber i Pheidippides spor, med Garmin mellem Marathon og Athen skal afstanden kun være 34,5 km <g>
Last Edited On: 2010-08-20 07:52:26 By ThomasRohde for the Reason
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Subject :Re:Marathon course...too short?.. 2010-08-20 08:40:27

johanandbex
I have been analyzing my splits from Sunday and it all still points to a 50k run ;D
damn good race, I actually feel quite sad that its over!
Good luck to all who have been on this forum, I have had lots of good advice on here so cheers.
Over and out and c u next year!
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Subject :Re:Marathon course...too short?.. 2010-08-20 19:32:01

Londoner

Guest
I found the explanation why everyone's got a different distance: It depends on the time you measured it!
Analyzing my split times led me to the conclusion that the course got longer the later in the day/evening it was. Whether that was because of an expansion of the surface or whether someone kept moving the cones I don't know. Did anyone observe anything suspicious?

@Johan: At what time did you run? From my extrapolation I would have expected the course length not to reach 50km until well into the night to Mon.
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Subject :Re:Marathon course...too short?.. 2010-08-21 23:11:50

Foob
My GPS indicated me a distance of 40,5km. It's true that the buildings and the location of GPS satellites at time of race may have impacted the measurements, but my GPS usually gives me errors of much smaller percentage.

Anyhow, let's forget GPS... if it can not be certified that the road has been measured like specified by the IAAF (ex: iaaf doc), no one can be sure the runned distance is the one of a Marathon.

I've noticed than in Triathlon, nobody can generally be sure about the lenght he has exactly swum, ridden, or run... It happens really often to me than my time performances give me the impression of swimming 1,7km instead of 1,9km of running 20km instead of 21km. So that "problem" is not specific to Copenhagen Challenge, but to every existing triathlon. Finally, all a triathlete can do after a race is to say that he has performed an approximated distance of "x" km, "x" being the distance announced by the organiser >;)
Last Edited On: 2010-08-21 23:17:07 By Foob for the Reason
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Subject :Re:Marathon course...too short?.. 2010-08-25 13:10:20

msuhrk

Guest
Hi,

Most often the accuracy on a GPS is influenced of the GPS-update intervals. A lot of watches are default configured to update position every 3'rd second (my watch was set up to update every second and was very precise). The 3-second update interval are generally ok, if the route are quite straight forward (no sharp corners etc.). But you need to keep in mind; that on the other hand, less frequent updates affect the distance calculation (shortens the distance) if the route includes a lot of cornering.

Due to corners you will miss a greater proportion of the distance due to the restricted/fewer number of points used for calculating (triangle calculations: calculated from point to point - Low amount of points provides bigger cut offs round a corner and more points results in greater accuracy).

Best Regards,
Mikael
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Subject :Re:Re:Marathon course...too short?.. 2010-08-26 07:29:34

johanandbex
Londoner Wrote on 2010-08-20 17:32:01:
@Johan: At what time did you run? From my extrapolation I would have expected the course length not to reach 50km until well into the night to Mon.

Well I finished at around 6:45 (started at 7:45 and did it in 11:00:12 - yes just 12 secs faster and I would have been inside 11!! I blame the long run course). I ran sooo fast that I think I felt a shift in the time space continuem, this could explain the 50k run I had to do.
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